FFXII= Letdown

[Zidane Tribal]

It was very lacking storywise and I didn't care for the characters. All in all a huge letdown for me since I was so excited about it. Let's hope XIII brings the series back on track.

[Garland]

If you wern't impressed with XII you probably will like XIII even less. >.>

[Commandie070792]

I agree with you Zidane, Final Fantasy XIII will be good.

It's logical that a good Final Fantasy always follows a not so good one (With the exception of VI and then VII)

I'll assume you're an avid IX fan. I really like IX too. I once bought a package on Ebay featuring both VIII and IX. I tried VIII first because the cover made it look like a better game than IX.

My first thoughts about VIII were "This is an absolutely terrible game!" And so my expectations for IX were low. Luckilly IX exceeded those expectations, and now I really like it.

I wasn't impressed with XII either, but I think that that will onlt make XIII seem better. And if you look, with the exception of Hironobu Sakaguchi and Nobuo Uematsu (Because they quit Square Enix), the staff for XIII is the same as VII, which most Fantasies cannot boast.

[Spira]

different strokes for different folks..

XII was a masterpiece, especially for the slightly mature audiences. It was fantasy, but it traipsed on deeper topics that were harder to appreciate. Political strife and sensitivity, political succession, powers of authority, loyalty and moral grounds and so on. Generally more political, which is something that rarely sits well with younger audiences.

XIII seems to be headed in a very different direction... As far as trailers go, its very stylized and not as tame as XII was.. more anime-styled, if you must.. so it'll probably be to your liking.

[Commandie070792]

I don' know, Spira. I don't think you have to be older to appreciate Final Fantasy XII, I just think that you have to hate the FF that came before it.

You see, I'm in high school and I'm a political junky. I would have loved a political FFXII.
But it never was that. It was "We need to go to this ridiculously far away place to achive freedom" And you'd traverse about six areas without seeing one cutscene. I remember I had to go from that one temple on a mountain that the Judge Magisters (Who look really cool) attacked to Archades. That took me a month of gaming and there was only one cutscene on the way there through about five areas (That highwaste, then that salika wood, the Tchita uplands, the Phon coast, and finally the place with the mandragoras).

In any other Final Fantasy, you would never see that (Except the first one). In FFX, I remember going on the Mi'ihen Highroad and having 6 cutscenes (The old man who tells stories, that girl and her mother who talk about the Calm, that summoner who challenges you, you chat with Luzu and Gatta, then the chick who's upset about the machina, then Seymour lets you through the gate) in one area.

Sure, in XII, there was a story line, but it was barely there because I'd be traveling to the next place and I'd forget why I was going there. Even pointless scenes allong the way would have helped it; you know, get some more character development in it.

But do you understand why I don't like it? Normal FF has a 6 cutscenes to 1 area ratio. XII has a 1 cutscene to 6 areas ratio.

I like political things. I like mature things. I play Metal Gear Solid, if you don't believe me. Actually, depending on my mood, I like the Metal Gear franchize more than the Final Fantasy franchize.

Yeah, so XII sucked.

[DuMbAsS]

Originally Posted by Commandie070792

I agree with you Zidane, Final Fantasy XIII will be good.

It's logical that a good Final Fantasy always follows a not so good one (With the exception of VI and then VII)

I'll assume you're an avid IX fan. I really like IX too. I once bought a package on Ebay featuring both VIII and IX. I tried VIII first because the cover made it look like a better game than IX.

My first thoughts about VIII were "This is an absolutely terrible game!" And so my expectations for IX were low. Luckilly IX exceeded those expectations, and now I really like it.

I wasn't impressed with XII either, but I think that that will onlt make XIII seem better. And if you look, with the exception of Hironobu Sakaguchi and Nobuo Uematsu (Because they quit Square Enix), the staff for XIII is the same as VII, which most Fantasies cannot boast.

I think this is mainly because their is a benchmark people can measure something up to. Previous good games have gone by so we don't use them anymore and now we use the later games.

[Spira]

Originally Posted by Commandie070792

I don' know, Spira. I don't think you have to be older to appreciate Final Fantasy XII, I just think that you have to hate the FF that came before it.

You see, I'm in high school and I'm a political junky. I would have loved a political FFXII.
But it never was that. It was "We need to go to this ridiculously far away place to achive freedom" And you'd traverse about six areas without seeing one cutscene. I remember I had to go from that one temple on a mountain that the Judge Magisters (Who look really cool) attacked to Archades. That took me a month of gaming and there was only one cutscene on the way there through about five areas (That highwaste, then that salika wood, the Tchita uplands, the Phon coast, and finally the place with the mandragoras).

In any other Final Fantasy, you would never see that (Except the first one). In FFX, I remember going on the Mi'ihen Highroad and having 6 cutscenes (The old man who tells stories, that girl and her mother who talk about the Calm, that summoner who challenges you, you chat with Luzu and Gatta, then the chick who's upset about the machina, then Seymour lets you through the gate) in one area.

Sure, in XII, there was a story line, but it was barely there because I'd be traveling to the next place and I'd forget why I was going there. Even pointless scenes allong the way would have helped it; you know, get some more character development in it.

But do you understand why I don't like it? Normal FF has a 6 cutscenes to 1 area ratio. XII has a 1 cutscene to 6 areas ratio.

I like political things. I like mature things. I play Metal Gear Solid, if you don't believe me. Actually, depending on my mood, I like the Metal Gear franchize more than the Final Fantasy franchize.

Yeah, so XII sucked.

So basically you're saying XII sucked cos it didn't have enough cutscenes?
I really don't know what to say. Firstly because the cutscenes were there, and they were pretty adaquate. XII cut down on a lot of the small talk, which put its in a sort of in-between position as compared to classic and PSI FFs. The crux of it is that its illogical to compare them as such. Normal FFs dont have a 6 cutscene to 1 ratio. In fact, FF1-3 didn't have cutscenes beyond the main story's narration. 4-5 were pretty minimal and 6-9 contained a fair bit of cutscenes, ill admit.. but the 6:1 ratio doesnt apply to any of them because their areas/zones aren't built into the game in the same fashion as X to XII.

So lets compare X. Yes, more pointless cutscenes between areas, but if you're going to talk about ratio to area, you must remember how SMALL the areas in FFX were. In between towns, X had, like 7 areas to traverse through. XII at least quadruples that in terms of area covered. X had less zones, and smaller area in each zone, so if you cram the same number of cutscenes from X to XII, they're still going to be spaced out more. Also, in FFX, 90% of the time the next pitstop in your travels was the very next zone you were in anyway.
Also, if you're talking about NPC interactions, they're still there and in greater number, except you don't get voice acting.

The route from Mt Bur-Omisace wasn't that long (hint: start from Nalbina) and the next few cutscenes are only 3 zones away - and contain a fairly crucial one to the build up of the story, and not some trivial stuff at it.

Honestly, i don't know how you took 1 month to get from Bur-Omisace to Archades. I took about an hour and a half at max and I wasn't even grinding levels yet. No offense, but even if you are a political junkie, I don't think you understand political theatrics yet.

[Garland]

Yes. After playing through Tactics: War of the lions, I expected an equal or greater part in political conspiracies throughout XII, but the game's plot was really quite simple, infact the Judge Magisters, and dr. Cid and all those excluding the Solidors were pretty much pointless obstacles throughout the game. In Tactics, EVERY person had a giant role to play, and i neveer knew who was doing what until everything came down to a close. In XII they introduced like, all the bad guys, which consisted about 5 1/2, after like, the first chapter. In tactics, everytime you thought you got rid of the villain, a new political hierchy would take it's place, and they were VARIED. XII didn't even have the cliche final fantasy story arch where the main villain keeps comming back to life, infact vayne pretty much just sat in his quarters throughout the game tenting his fingers! How -pointless- is that? Plus, throwing in some random higher power towards the end kind of gave me the feeling like it didn't have to belong there.

Now, as for cutscenes, yeah. I recall that XII had like a fu#king CGI cutcene like, every 5 minutes. Infact, their CGI ones almost outnumbered their regular talking ones. X, i recall as being quite inconsistent. I remember that the developers originally made half the game to almost have talking NPC's everywhere on the world map. When you started at zanarkand, everyone you pressed the x button next to actually spoke to you, THEN they got lazy and abruptly switched to text like two scenes later, THEN they'd go back to audio. That frustrated me, do to the inconsistency of everything. I liked the "pointless" talking scenes, it gave the game more of a feel for each of the characters. In XII, every one had like one simple screw in their lives and they only talked about it once. However, X's cutscene quality was so shaky and off sync, sometimes i'd be praying for it to end soon. The battle against Sin after the highway map was epic. And i liked all the different character scenes being introduced in it. (Commandie, you forgot about Auron's old corrupt clergy friend of Bevelle)

Ah yes, the maps. When i think in the past, yes X was a little linear and it was a little small and one roaded. XII had all sorts of paths and roots and... Walking and...... More walking... What, it had like SIX fu#king deserts!? Yeah, it's realistic for a multi area desert, but hell! All that walking back and forth became repetetive and boring after awhile, just like fighting ivalice's diverse 45 pallete swaped breeds of wolves! ugh.( and with XIII's World Map rumored to confuse even the developers, i can only hope for a 80 day play of walking through a mountainous canyon.

X had the idea of a good game, XII had the style of a good game. So, was XII a good final fantasy? Yes, definately! Was it a masterpiece? Far from it! Calling XII a master piece would be like giving spirits within an oscar!

[Commandie070792]

Originally Posted by Garland

Yes. After playing through Tactics: War of the lions, I expected an equal or greater part in political conspiracies throughout XII, but the game's plot was really quite simple, infact the Judge Magisters, and dr. Cid and all those excluding the Solidors were pretty much pointless obstacles throughout the game. In Tactics, EVERY person had a giant role to play, and i neveer knew who was doing what until everything came down to a close. In XII they introduced like, all the bad guys, which consisted about 5 1/2, after like, the first chapter. In tactics, everytime you thought you got rid of the villain, a new political hierchy would take it's place, and they were VARIED. XII didn't even have the cliche final fantasy story arch where the main villain keeps comming back to life, infact vayne pretty much just sat in his quarters throughout the game tenting his fingers! How -pointless- is that? Plus, throwing in some random higher power towards the end kind of gave me the feeling like it didn't have to belong there.

Now, as for cutscenes, yeah. I recall that XII had like a fu#king CGI cutcene like, every 5 minutes. Infact, their CGI ones almost outnumbered their regular talking ones. X, i recall as being quite inconsistent. I remember that the developers originally made half the game to almost have talking NPC's everywhere on the world map. When you started at zanarkand, everyone you pressed the x button next to actually spoke to you, THEN they got lazy and abruptly switched to text like two scenes later, THEN they'd go back to audio. That frustrated me, do to the inconsistency of everything. I liked the "pointless" talking scenes, it gave the game more of a feel for each of the characters. In XII, every one had like one simple screw in their lives and they only talked about it once. However, X's cutscene quality was so shaky and off sync, sometimes i'd be praying for it to end soon. The battle against Sin after the highway map was epic. And i liked all the different character scenes being introduced in it. (Commandie, you forgot about Auron's old corrupt clergy friend of Bevelle)

Ah yes, the maps. When i think in the past, yes X was a little linear and it was a little small and one roaded. XII had all sorts of paths and roots and... Walking and...... More walking... What, it had like SIX fu#king deserts!? Yeah, it's realistic for a multi area desert, but hell! All that walking back and forth became repetetive and boring after awhile, just like fighting ivalice's diverse 45 pallete swaped breeds of wolves! ugh.( and with XIII's World Map rumored to confuse even the developers, i can only hope for a 80 day play of walking through a mountainous canyon.

X had the idea of a good game, XII had the style of a good game. So, was XII a good final fantasy? Yes, definately! Was it a masterpiece? Far from it! Calling XII a master piece would be like giving spirits within an oscar!

Good call.

Maybe Spira'll learn now that FF12 had nothing to do with maturity to like. (Yeah right)
I wish people could just disagree without calling names.

BTW, name calling is infact a sign of immaturity, although I admit it is not my place to judge anyone.
So I don't intend to call names, Spira; just don't be a hypocrite.

[Garland]

Originally Posted by Commandie070792

Good call.

Maybe Spira'll learn now that FF12 had nothing to do with maturity to like. (Yeah right)
I wish people could just disagree without calling names.

BTW, name calling is infact a sign of immaturity, although I admit it is not my place to judge anyone.
So I don't intend to call names, Spira; just don't be a hypocrite.

Yeah, you are right.
Personally, i think Spira just likes to twist harmless debates into fights. And yes, i realise that spira will probably quote me and post a reply saying that he does otherwise. If you had PM's active i might of said some worse things though.

[Spira]

i don't get it.
I can agree to disagree, but seriously, which part of my post is calling names?

as i iterated at the very beginning.. different strokes for different folks..
you may not agree with me, but I never asked of you to. I'm only stating an opinion, and a well-argued one at that.

it was only because you seemed adamant to prove that it can never be a masterpiece that i felt the need to present my case.
FFXII was a good game.
Was it the best FF? in my opinion, no.
Was it worthy of being called a masterpiece? Based on many various perspectives, yes.

Now, if you cannot accept a differing opinion, then it is you that is being immature.. which would only go to prove my point.

[Commandie070792]

Originally Posted by Spira

No offense, but even if you are a political junkie, I don't think you understand political theatrics yet.

I'll admit, it's not really name calling; it's more like judging. The two are similar and I should have said judging, but, still, judging's not cool.

And I know you said "no offence", but that doesn't give you a pass to say anything. Like that scene in Talladega Knights: The Ballad of Ricky Bobby, where Ricky was saying "with all due respect..." and just totally being rude to his manager.

And, Spira, we could have just agreed to disagree, but the first thing you did was make it personal, like I'm the kind of person who wouldn't like a political story. You totally can't make a judgement like that unless you've known me in person.

But to your credit, I don't think that you were trying to start a fight; I just think you said the wrong thing to the wrong person. So let's just be cool. K?

[Garland]

I think this sums everything up:

YTMND - Where's Final Fantasy XII? -RELEASE UPDATE-

Better yet it sums up pretty much every game xD

[Harlequin]

Originally Posted by Commandie070792

I agree with you Zidane, Final Fantasy XIII will be good.

It's logical that a good Final Fantasy always follows a not so good one (With the exception of VI and then VII)

Hold on, where's the logic in that hypothesis? FF9 > FF10

FF9 and 10 were arguably the best FFs and regardless of examples we cant simply expect the next FF to deliver simply because 12 didnt (even though i disagree with that notion).

FF12 was a triumph in visuals, soundtrack and depth, albeit with a rather frail storyline that - at best, rivalled FF8's rather weak storyline. Thank god however that there's a large segment of FF fans who appreciate other aspects of the game and dont have to rely on a strong story to see them through any given final fantasy (although I myself am a fan of emotional depth in gaming). In truth FF13 would do well to match FF12. If it had an easy to use, hard to master system FF12 implemented which almost everyone could use and be satisfied with and incredible design and graphics to complement it the FF genre would probably dominate the gaming world come FF14.

However I dont see FF13 becoming a favourite amongst FF fans, mainly because its set in a time period where the average FF fan (not me) hates - the future/present. Looking back at all the other successes, we see that FF1, 2, 4, 5, 3/6, 9 and 12 have all been set in or around the medieval days. There was only one game that shone outside that time period - FF7, and even then received some slander from segments of the fans at the time for straying from the seemingly compulsory time frame which made the franchise a hit, but hey, maybe I'm wrong...

[Vermilion Thanatos]

Meh, I found the visuals slightly aggravating and the soundtrack lacking memorability. The almost-cel-shading combined with that shifty motion blur thing and people with odd-shaped noses all in a very sparse and monochromatic environment was a huge turn-off. And I have yet to appreciate a FF soundtrack after Uematsu left, although I hope Shimomura's Versus XIII ends that streak.

I have little doubt that FF13 will be much more appreciated than FF12, purely because it is the first one to be released on a rather more advanced console. Even if it sucks in comparison to later FF's on that console, it will still be regarded as a great achievement. It was the same with FF7 and FFX (though admittedly, X didn't have a better successor). Point being, I am looking forward to FFXIII because the shiny graphics are all I have to go on and will probably have the most influence on mine and the world's opinion of it long after it comes out. FFXII was a letdown.

And don't confuse your opinion with the rest of the world's. V is not often considered a classic because it was too generic. IX is not often considered a classic (although it could and should be) because it came out right before the release of the PS2 and got lost on an obsolete console. I could just as easily say that VI, VII, VIII, and X are considered the golden age (which in most contexts means "better than the classics") because they do contain a lot of futuristic elements. And whether you like it or not, FF VII is the icon of the FF series for a reason; it was a good game, and the only reason people say it sucks is to be all counter-cultural. Yes I agree that it doesn't deserve to have as many spinoffs as it does any more than the other games (except maybe 5, *shudder*), but that is no reason to hate on the original game and its creators. Hate the games for what they have become, not for what they used to be.

[Commandie070792]

I recant my remarks; Final Fantasy XII has recently become my favorite Final Fantasy. My judgement is based on the greatness of the battle system, the completeness and beauty of the world, and because I've cracked the plot and now I understand it ten times better.

"The reigns of history back into the hands of man." That was what the entirety of the game was about. It was about Venat rebelling against the Occuria, trying to free Ivalice from the Occuria's control. But Venat tryed doing this by giving power to Vayne and Cid which is where this turned bad because Vayne and Cid saw Ashe, the one chosen by the Occuria, as their enemy. And Vayne wasn't sitting on his hands the whole time, he just couldn't use the bahamut untill Cid did that thing with the deifacted nethicite at the pharos.

[Vermilion Thanatos]

Woah. It seems so obvious, but I didn't see Venat as a good guy until you pointed that out...

[archangelserenity]

to fully enjoy a game you have to know it. once you know what you are doing or know the story, what is in your mind about the game. people will feel differently about it always.

i used to hate ff8 because it confused me but now i think of it has a favourite.
i still dont much like ffXII because i got stuck 20 hours in then my memory card got wiped so i cant be bothered starting up again but if and when i do, i know i will enjoy it.

[napoleon336]

Originally Posted by Spira

different strokes for different folks..

XII was a masterpiece, especially for the slightly mature audiences. It was fantasy, but it traipsed on deeper topics that were harder to appreciate. Political strife and sensitivity, political succession, powers of authority, loyalty and moral grounds and so on. Generally more political, which is something that rarely sits well with younger audiences.

XIII seems to be headed in a very different direction... As far as trailers go, its very stylized and not as tame as XII was.. more anime-styled, if you must.. so it'll probably be to your liking.

I agree. I loved XII. It was the first FF game I played. The graphics are masterful. Second to none on the ps2.

[Vermilion Thanatos]

Originally Posted by napoleon336

I agree. I loved XII. It was the first FF game I played. The graphics are masterful. Second to none on the ps2.

Funny, considering that most FF fans, even if they appreciate the good parts of XII, would rank X as the best PS2 FF. Hell, X consistently ranks up at the top with VII (or with VI and IX if the list were made by FF classicists). X had a few shortcomings, but not nearly as many as XII.

And I hope you only mean second to no other FF game on the PS2 and not every game on the PS2, because even ignoring X (which actually made nearly every "top PS2 games" list, unlike XII), XII doesn't hold a candle to most games on the PS2, the best of which include God of War, Shadow of the Colossus, ICO, Okami, Silent Hill 2, Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time, Devil May Cry, Metal Gear Solid 2, Resident Evil 4, and even Kingdom Hearts. I'd say all of them would be recommended before XII, because frankly for all the politics and cinematic wonder, XII fell short on making the actual gaming aspect fun.