9-11 attacks utterly legal!

[My Final Heaven]

Alright. Couple disclaimers

1- I am not a muslim extreemist. I don't own a Quran, I couldn't quote you one verse from it.

2- I am a resident of Canada and partially to blame for this as well, though not really because I wasn't alive at the time that I could have had any small part in preventing what I will describe, though living freely in this country that aided the attrocities commited by the United states government between 1950 and 1999 in no matter how small a means feels pretty dirty right now.

The 9-11 highjackers were utterly justified in thier attacks on 9-11 in thier reasons and thier methods, here's why. The United states has been the direct sponsor of terrorism all around the world for 50 years. The reasons for this at the moment do not matter because on most accounts, the victims actually attempted to resolve the issue through diplomatic channels, then through the U.N. security council which finally got Vetoed by the U.S.

A few examples.

Cuba: Do I even need to mention this, I think everyone knows. The U.S. first took notice of Cuba when a young upstart name Fidel Castro took power and began a series of social changes which turned a repressed dictatorship of a country into what was about to become a thriving paradise, with universal healthcare and a raft of other social programs. Why should the U.S. care? Because Cuba makes sugar, and everyone knows that raw produce from a thriving country is much more expensive than from a dictatorship... So they set out to crush Cuba, ecconomically and militarilly, and they did it by paying and outfitting ex cuban nationals of the Batista regime to conduct clandestine attacks against Cuban civilians. They were even based on American soil. Cuba went to the U.N. to try and stop them (In 1959 I believe, 3 years before the cuban missile crissis) but of course, U.S. and Britain Vetoed the motion. Naturally, Cuba turns to the only ally it can find, the Soviet union for help. Missile crissis ensues.

Guatemala: Pretty much the same story. Guatemalan people free themselves from a bloody regime (Loyal to the U.S.) and their reward is a a ten year campaign of international terror funded by the U.S. government for much the same reasons as Cuba. The fact it went on so long is part of the reason that 9-11 was justified I might add, so keep it in mind. Guatemala actually got a ruling from the World Court that ordered the U.S. to cease hostilities imediatly and to pay damages. In response, the U.S. intensified attacks and the matter next went to the security council, again, vetoed. Three nations against the world on that one by the way, it was everybody against the U.S. Britain and Nicuragua, Nicuragua being another country which had just undergone the same treatment and had a governement now opposed to Guatemala.

Iran, Lebannon, Brazil, Vietnam, all countries who's only real crime was to free themselves of tyranical leaders and by doing so potentially increase the prices of raw materials in the United states. The usual mode was to ecconimically crush a country until it sought aid from the Soviets in self defense and then of course, they were fighting the evil Conmunism.

So why was 9-11 justified? Well here's the thing, the United states is a democracy or at least it gloriously proclaims it's self to be, so why not take it at it's word, and the thing about a demorcracy is that every citizen is in some way responsible for the leadership, and by extention the leadership's policies, espeically it's policies over an extended period of time. 50 years of bullying the world through violence and terror is a long time. That means that because everybody is responsible for terror, everyone is a culpable and a legitimate target, because everyone is a culpable and legitimate threat.

Eveeryone in the U.S. is to blame for this, and so everybody shares responsibility when someone fed up with the legal channels takes matters into thier own hands to do something about it. I really hope that the War on Terror Finally bankrupts the U.S. not because I want to see Islam Win (Though they thier own right to be governed as they wish, I just don't want to be a part of it) but because the U.S. needs to be stopped and I don't really care who has the balls to do it at this point.


It would also be intresting to see if posting this gets my name on the 'no fly' list.

[Honest Abel]

Yes, an eye for an eye is always justified. Forgiving people is overrated!

[RIKKU FFX-2]

if u dont mind shuting the hell thehell up it would be greatly apreciated!! thats way to much info!!

[My Final Heaven]

THere's no chance, given the time that I posted this to your responses that you had time to read the whole thing.

Mostly directed at Abes, because if you see in my examples, people have been trying to stop the U.S. through diplomatic channels for years. After many attempts at legal means have been attepted and failed then violence IS justified. And besides, it could hardly be called an eye for an eye, it's more like several millions deaths (The U.S's global killings in thier state sponsored terror) for a chipped fingernail. (The death's incured by the 9-11 attacks.)

Proportinatly, you would have to kill the U.S. population about 9 times before you approached the level of death that has been caused in a 50 year period by the U.S's state sponsored terror. (That's a guestimate, I have no legitimate numbers to back that up)

[RIKKU FFX-2]

i was just kidding dude

[My Final Heaven]

And this is a serious thread. Joke somewhere else.

[Trav]

There is no justification in flying planes into a building and killing 3000 people instantly. It may be a case for revenge but that doesnt mean its justified.

50 years of bullying the world through violence and terror is a long time

More often than not America is responding to an incident, you call it bullying because you are not aware of all the facts. Example: Colombia smuggling cocaine into US. US responds suddenly it's inhumane. Is America just to sit back and not do anything while filth runs rampant on their streets?
What you see as bullying other people see as fixing a problem or mess. Don't assume until you look at ALL the facts.

Eveeryone in the U.S. is to blame for this

What you basing that on? Sounds like a bit of a rant to me....

Let's not forget that many countries just don't have what it takes to 'behave' and be civilised. However you are basing you're entire arguements on a few men in office and coming to the assumption the entire country is at fault. You my friend, need to understand 60-70% of America HATES its president. What does that tell you?

[My Final Heaven]

It does not matter that you hate it. You pay taxes to the government you hate and that means a portion of the money used to sponsor terrorism is YOUR MONEY. That in the strictist legal sense of the word means that you are in part responsible for those terrorist activities. That is not a rant, that is dirty grimey truth. Sure you hate THIS government but I'm not talking about this one. I'm talking fifty years of history, and they were not all hated. They were loved for thier Barbarisicm. And that statement 'Let's not forget that many countries just don't have what it takes to 'behave' and be civilised.' Is exactly the kind of bull**** your government has been using to justify thier attrocities for decades. DECADES! And you as citizens do nothing about it. You know that law that says if you're a bystander to a crime and you do nothing to prevent it? EVERY AMERICAN IS GUILTY OF THAT CRIME!


Something I forgot to mention is that this all came from reading a book called Hegemony or Survival by Noam Chomsky, so if you have issue with my facts, take them up with him.

[Ex Deo]

Originally Posted by My Final Heaven

And you as citizens do nothing about it. You know that law that says if you're a bystander to a crime and you do nothing to prevent it? EVERY AMERICAN IS GUILTY OF THAT CRIME!

Under this logic, considering that Canada is directly above us and buys our products, thus supporting our economy and our terrorism, isn't Canada, and yourself also responsible because you've done nothing to stop us?

[My Final Heaven]

Yes, and that annoys me more than anything. I wrote that in disclaimer #2 if you bothered to read the third line of text I wrote. I did not obsolve myself of blame.

I said it was justified, I did not say it was right. There is a sizable gulf in the difference between 'Right' and 'Justified'.

[Trav]

You know how I know you're ranting? Because I'm not even American or live in America. My taxes go to no American government nor did I ever vote in America. You are ranting and not paying attention to the reading content.

Anyway

You pay taxes to the government you hate and that means a portion of the money used to sponsor terrorism is YOUR MONEY

No it isnt. To live in a country you must pay taxes, so a person money goes to living there in payment to government, it's the government who decide what to do with the money. So it's not a individuals fault, if they dont pay taxes then they cant live in the country and go about their lives. So your point there makes no sense and is utterly generalised.

That is not a rant, that is dirty grimey truth

Maybe you're version of the truth or maybe you need to open your eyes and see America is not the only country at fault.

They were loved for thier Barbarisicm

Which one and why?

And that statement 'Let's not forget that many countries just don't have what it takes to 'behave' and be civilised.' Is exactly the kind of bull**** your government has been using to justify thier attrocities for decades. DECADES!

Like I said I'm not American so how can it have been American propoganda I just wrote that out as I see fit 5 minutes ago. Also I have never an American Government talk like that and I'm 22 years old.

EVERY AMERICAN IS GUILTY OF THAT CRIME!

Theres a difference between domestic and foriegn laws - in every country.

Something I forgot to mention is that this all came from reading a book called Hegemony or Survival by Noam Chomsky, so if you have issue with my facts, take them up with him.

Likes authors cant never be wrong........................................


So far you are not doing to well to proove your point or should I say theory .....

[Ex Deo]

No, I didn't bother reading it entirely, just skimmed it. I've heard most of the arguments before. And I have to respect your taking responsibility.

I'll also go ahead and state, that while there is no argument from me about the US' policy, nobody can justify mass murder like that. There isn't a person on this planet who is immune from committing evil, great or small. We're all equal in our goodness and evil, which is why no man ought to pass judgment on another- 9/11 being one such example of judgment of the worst kind.

[My Final Heaven]

Yes, I am ranting, and I noticed you're scotish before I wrote the last sentence and couldn't be bothered to change the rest. Take the you to mean Americans and it does hold true in every sence of the Law, and that's what I'm talking about here is that virtually everyone who has aided the U.S. in any way would be a justifiable target from terrorist groups with grievances agains't the United States because there exsists no Channels that can be used to deal with the U.S. because they are the top of the chain. The only way to even try and promote any kind of change is to prove that you will not be pushed around and that you have the means to defend your own intrests.

Kenndy was well Loved and probably the Worst of the Lot. He had his hand in many of those, and Reagan too. Make Reagan the worst because he had 2 terms of it.

[Trav]

Make Reagan the worst because he had 2 terms of it.

One could argue Reagan fought the cold war without firing a single bullet. If war were to have broken out how many lives would have been lost, would a US attack on Russia have been justified if the Cuban Missile Crisis became an attack on US soil?

[Tom]

I just want to know why you figure the American people had to pay the price for something that their government did. Do you really think we have control over wether or not Bush makes an ass of himself, or any president for that matter?

[Trav]

Originally Posted by Auron

I just want to know why you figure the American people had to pay the price for something that their government did. Do you really think we have control over wether or not Bush makes an ass of himself, or any president for that matter?

Heres a better way to say it.

Why should people of the present pay for errors of the past? A lot of people who died in WTC and flight 93 were youngsters at the time of Americas so 'called' errors. Thats not their fault at all.

[Dave]

I used to feel the same way, then I realised I was an idiot.

But in all seriousness I disagree. Yes the U.S. does a lot of stupid ****, gets involved in crap they shouldn't and ends up killing far too many innocent people. And yes like you said, much more than 9-11 did.

However we are forgetting about objectives here. It is the U.S.'s intensions to bring peace and democracy.... they don't actually do it, and they should start learning to just mind their own damn business, but they are not going over there with the intent of killing civillians. I believe their intent is true, they want to help the troubled areas of the world, however their methods do not work.

This does not warrent the planned killing of over 3000 innocent people in a major world city, you are wrong.

[The Man]

I don't believe a word the U.S. government says when it talks about bringing "peace" and "democracy" to other lands. You know why? Because when it invaded Grenada, it did so under the guise of binging "peace and democracy" to the region. Its actions in Iran were done in the name of "peace and democracy," and its actions in Nicaragua against the Sandanistas, in Venezuela against Chávez, and on and on.

I think using that logic as a justification for 9/11 are rather weak though. Which isn't to say that 9/11 wasn't justified by the standards the U.S. itself applies to targets in other countries. For example, there was a CIA office in the World Trade Center, which makes it an "intelligence target" by those standards, and I think we can all agree that the Pentagon quite clearly qualifies as a "military target." Barbaric to consider that justified, yes, but so are the standards the U.S. applies to other countries. If we want those standards to stop being applied to us, perhaps we should stop applying them to everyone else.

To people proclaiming "TEHY ATTAKT US CUZ TEHY HAET OUR FREEDOMS LOLZ," consider for a moment that the Pentagon is a symbol of America's military dominance, and the World Trade Center is a symbol of America's economic dominance. If the 9/11 hijackers had meant to make a statement against America's freedoms, wouldn't they have attacked the Statue of Liberty instead?

[Trav]

wouldn't they have attacked the Statue of Liberty instead

Maybe they've tried, Flight 93 could have been on route.
Many other foiled attacks and attack plans that have been thawrted may have had the Statue as a target.

I still stand by the principle it is NOT america doing the troubles. It's the actions of a few men in power. Where as some countries literally do have thousands of people causing trouble. Somalia anyone?

[The Man]

I'll agree that the average American isn't doing anything that directly causes harm to the average person in another country. But they aren't doing anything to stop their government from doing so, either. Clinton's Secretary of State Madeline Albright flat-out admitted that the U.S.'s actions in the first Gulf War were genocide, and there was no controversy to speak of. No one demanded that the people responsible for the genocide be strung up, no one even demanded that they be reprimanded. The majority of people yawned and went to bed, if they even heard about it at all.

The callous indifference of the majority of Americans to others' suffering, which is in many cases directly caused by the leaders they elect, can and has been compared to the actions of the "Good Germans" in World War II. That's not to say three thousand of them actually deserved to die, but I do think America has long passed the point where it deserves its military and economic dominance - if, indeed, it ever deserved them in the first place.